Idea Guy Looking for Developer
May 23rd, 2011It happens all the time: someone thinks they have a great idea and all they need is a developer to implement it and internet riches will roll in. Recently someone sent me a (nice and very reasonable) email about how they had been developing their idea and now were looking for developers. Their efforts to reach out to programmers on GitHub hadn’t been very successful and they were wondering how to proceed.
This is what I said:
To answer your question on meeting developers, it’s complicated. I think reaching out to people on GitHub is a nice impulse: they’re developers that are making cool stuff and open to being somewhat out there in public. And, it shows that you understand how (many) developers work and are coming to them.
However, you’re correct that many developers are hesitant to join startups like that. Frankly, ideas are easy, it’s execution that’s hard. I think that I’m like many freelance developers: I get many people coming to me with their ‘great idea’ that will be oh so simple for me to build and I should definitely build it in return for a portion of the revenue.
Unfortunately things are rarely (never?) that simple. First, they often dramatically underestimate the amount of work it’ll take. This leads to the second problem, they dramatically undervalue the programmer’s time and skill. They both think that less skill is required (so the programmer doesn’t deserve much compensation) and that less time is required (effectively creating a very low hourly rate for the programmer, given the flat rates that are often proposed).
Finally, if a revenue share is bring proposed, that essentially means that the programmer is trusting that the product will sell well, including that the other person will do marketing and promotion necessary to make it a success (the amount of which is necessary is often underestimated by the idea person). In the best case this means the developer is waiting months to get paid and at worst not at all. Having already handed over the code for the product to go to market, the developer has essentially no leverage to ensure that they get paid.
Finally there’s the question of the opportunity cost for the developer. First, if the developer is working for a reduced rate compared to their regular clients, that’s obviously money they’re not making that they normally would. Of course, in theory the project is much more fun and interesting and world-changing than their normal gigs. However, I find that’s not often the case.
That relates to another issue, which is that often the ideas are unrealistic. I’ve found that, partially thanks to the variety of projects I’ve worked on as a freelancer, I have a much better sense of the problems inherent in an idea, both as a product and as a business, than the person presenting it to me.
Given all this and considering that developers are creative people themselves who could be spending their unpaid time on their own projects, the final opportunity cost is simply that it would take time from their own potentially world-changing project.
So, it takes a lot to convince a developer to join your project! For all the reasons above, developers like me are understandably wary of people coming to them with lots of ideas but little money. Now, I don’t know at all if you’re guilty of those things but unfortunately your messages probably triggered developers’ thoughts of all that bullshit! Bummer, isn’t it!
So, my first recommendation would be to visit a bunch of in-person developer events. That way you can form a nice personal connection with developers and see who’s active in Amsterdam. I have a calendar of upcoming events on my site and I particularly recommend Amsterdam.js (Javascript), Amsterdam.rb (Ruby), and CocoaHeads (iPhone and Mac).
Second, why not learn to make it yourselves? Without knowing what you want to do I can’t say how hard it’d be, but often it’s a lot easier than you might think. And I and many others at the programming meetups are happy to answer questions and help new programmers. Just speaking from my own experience, I’ve always found it easier to learn a new programming language or tool when I had a specific project I wanted to learn it for.
Update, 2011-05-25: There has been a nice big discussion on Hacker News about this post.
Update, 2013-01-31: This post has been translated into Hebrew. Cool!
May 24th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Having been a principal in several startups, I felt this way early on too – but you are too discouraging of these people (I call them ‘idea hamsters’) – especially those that want to keep digging deeper and deeper into the product with boundless energy – these people are often the nuclear reactor of successful startups, not the developers.
As a perfect example, I recently took a startup position at 25% less of my current salary – for no other reason that at this point in my career, I wanted to not second-guess anyone, but instead back an intelligent, charismatic idea hamster who had a decent idea 100%
In another startup I engineered 100%, the ‘idea hamster’ threw a very unique viral marketing switch I would never have even thought of
which catapulted our revenue 10x for years.
May 24th, 2011 at 3:14 pm
Wow. Just Wow. This is so plainly put its going to be saved to my cloud bookmarks for ever.
May 24th, 2011 at 3:35 pm
Yea, I agree with this article. I’m an ‘idea guy’ but the only project I ever started where the developer worked for free I ended up buying them out at a fair price as they didn’t have the patience to wait for a payoff which is fair. If I was a developer the only way I would work on a revenue sharing thing is proof of a previous marketing effort that resulted in success. If you don’t have the money or ability to get the end product out there then the idea is useless.
May 24th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
I get this question a lot. A LOT. It’s running a close second to “Do you know a WordPress theme developer?”
I’m really happy to see your echoing my usual response: find folks who are working on similar ideas and start going to the user group meetings they attend. Think you’ve got some insanely original idea? Then pick a language and start going to THOSE user groups.
Long story short, try getting involved in the community as a participant before trying to convince people to help you realize your idea.
May 24th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
Here’s the scenario I have run into more often than not:
Idea guy: I have a great idea. I will give you X% exchange for your time. What a deal!
Developer: I need money. Pay me full rate!
Idea guy: but you get X% of the future potential!
Developer: Yeah, but if I had time to work free / cheap, I would work on any one of my 1000 better ideas and get 100%.
May 24th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
There’s a couple things I want to comment on with regard to this blog post that doesn’t explain things from a different perspective.
I’m as much as a technical guy as I am a business guy. I’ve been fortunate enough to have played both roles on a high level and have found great success in my career in both doing startups as well as side projects (of which some call lifestyle businesses). As such, I have to an extent the ability to code, design, market, fund raise, hire talent, etc etc…
With great successes including an acquisition of a previously scaled startup of my own, I have somewhat of a track record as well as financials to scale the next idea as validated proof as well. I don’t bring any of this up to brag but to illustrate my next point. Even with all the above said, I still have a strong preference working with a cofounder. I just love that environment better and I honestly think having more core people at the beginning is a great benefit regardless if you could successfully go solo (and many have done so).
Having said that, majority of my friends are working on their own businesses and ideas. Even with great idea and validation, etc… people often prefer to work on their own ideas if they haven’t already. My previous cofounder and I are extremely close, but after our previous startup together, we couldn’t agree on an idea to work together on and thus decided to build separate companies. For the record, we’re still extremely close and talk every day. The decision to not work together was more along the lines of difference in business pursuits. But this is where things get hard. Finding a cofounder is like finding a wife (common metaphor) and everyone should take time to know someone and not just join together to build something because of their drive to want to build a company. But even with that said, people often don’t want to work on an idea that is not their own (generally).
However this prosed as a problem as well. Even with my technical ability, track record, and clear understanding with proven validated concepts (including committed users), it’s extremely hard to convince others to join your startup no matter how much they seem to agree its amazing (if its not already launched, have funding, and/or is scaling). And that’s with money in the bank that I can finance the whole thing easily. I find it extremely easier to find early employees with or without equity to be excited about a launched project than to bring on a cofounder pre-launch even with everything going on. Hiring isn’t an issue. But that’s not the same as bringing on a trusted cofounder you can sweat with. The argument that an idea is nothing and execution somewhat gives the false pretense that if you execute something, you’d be able to find a cofounder easier. While its true it is easier in a sense, it’s not easy by any definition. And I think that is where things get lost in translation with a lot of posts like this. Simply put, most people, even passionate coders, prefer to work on their own thing (whether that’s a startup or not, doesn’t matter).
The above seems to lead many to believe that IF you know what you’re doing on the business side (assuming you’re non-technical) i.e. scaling, hiring, legal, marketing, etc etc… and you got a validated idea with committed beta users and feedback, one that coders can believe in, then you probably have a fair chance in finding a cofounder. So let me just say even if you add in experience, technical abilities, and several other things onto that stack, the odds are still stack against your favor even if the possibility still exists. It’s never really 50/50. I’ve talked with technical guys who wanted to pursue ideas that are less refined, have questionable loopholes in their ideas/strategy/vision/etc… and they acknowledge this, yet still prefer to pursue their idea over one they see has value simply because it’s their idea. That is more of a common problem to address in addition to this notion that a non-technical founder wanting a code monkey alone.
May 24th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
+1 on projects being a great vehicle for learning a new programming language. I learned Computer Science and software development the traditional way, but it was personal projects that inspired me to learn Ruby on Rails and Obj-C/Cocoa in a very short amount of time.
May 24th, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Totally agree on the why-not-do-it-yourself, building an application is still quite hard and takes a lot of work. However with web frameworks out there such as django and rails it has become a lot easier to at least jump in the pool and try to turn ideas into code and something you can show a potential cofounder as well.
May 24th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
“[T]hey often dramatically underestimate the amount of work it’ll take.”
but then,
“[O]ften it’s a lot easier than you might think.”
So, which one is it?
May 24th, 2011 at 6:07 pm
If you’re truly an idea person, and are looking for true collaborators to work with, check out http://www.iinspireus.com — it’s a platform that is meant exactly for that!
May 24th, 2011 at 6:11 pm
Very nicely said! I shared this with my twitter stream and the response was great. Definitely a needed article. Many people demean our work and don’t realize the time and effort that goes into it. People may pay a plummer $90 an hour, but want to pay a designer/developer only $10 (exaggerating… or not). Thanks for sharing. Have a nice day.
May 24th, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Or you could just send this link:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=an+idea+is+worth+nothing%2C+it%27s+all+in+the+execution
May 24th, 2011 at 6:38 pm
@Andrew, it’s both. The idea guy’s belief is twofold: (1) that a developer can do it easily and (2) that they can’t possibly do it. The difficulty of the idea isn’t an issue. It’s the extremity of the idea guy’s beliefs about the difficulty. This article is about pulling both sides of those extremities into a sane middle.
May 24th, 2011 at 7:12 pm
Start Up seems to mean two things… one: creating something from scratch and hoping the product or service sells. two: with a business plan, and funding, a product or service is created and sold.
For programmers in today’s environment, it seems foolish to work for free for anyone: but yourself. Also if you are working for free, you can only do it during the times when you aren’t ‘normally working’.
So if you’re looking for programmers, make sure you are up front about the situation: is it a real Start Up Company that has a business plan and funding? Or is it a freelance project, and any contribution you make will not be directly compensated? I would guess 3 out of 4 programmers out there are not interested in the latter.
If you can’t sell your idea to a bank or VC group, that’s a red flag.
May 24th, 2011 at 8:39 pm
You nail it Peter, not only from the developers perspective. I am a designer and do not start working for clients before there is a contract in place that negotiates my payment.
Though on the other hand, out of curiosity and maybe the inferior urge to give man birth to another creative idea, I have done a fair share of “not only for profit” collaborations with architects, makers and developers. In that configuration it is essential that I appreciate the skills and vision that the other people bring to the table, only then the result will make my personal investment worthwhile.
In my opinion you need to be able to make a financial investment if you have no skills other than product management and ownership.
May 24th, 2011 at 8:43 pm
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
I will also add two additional points.
1) Since these “ideas guys” are often not very technical, their project scope / requirements are very fuzzy and subject to change. Also, the things they often hold as important are not germane to the application. I recently had the experience where the project stakeholders were fixated with web 2.0 stuff (eg Facebook integration). However, their actual idea didn’t have a lot of compelling functionality.
2) The person or people with the idea are the ones excited about it. The developers in this situation have little or no creative control. So really, the only thing to offer them is more money. In my experience, developers will work on their own projects for free but others must pay more than market value to get them to work on a project which cuts into their discretionary time.
May 24th, 2011 at 9:22 pm
Enjoyed this post a lot and agree with most of it.
Regarding advising business people/non-coders to start developing themselves, and how relatively easy it is:
- I’ve been writing code on and off for 30 years so learning new languages is pretty trivial (even though I’m old and have few brain cells left). Learning your first language, however, is a potentially steep learning curve, because you are learning to code. Indeed, you are learning engineer. And I don’t think everyone finds it easy – depends on your intuitive learning and thinking patterns. I’m a “systems thinker” – I systems and flow of execution everywhere and I always have.
- I recently learned Objective C, and pretty fast. But I already knew Perl, which is syntacially similar to C, and so if you are learning languages down the tree of descent of languages you already know, it is way easier that learning a language with dramatically different syntax or fundamental concepts (like structured, OOP, functional, etc.)
- In recently learning to program for iOS, Objective C was the relatively easy part – so was the IDE. SDK/Cocoa/hardware was the hard part – still learning that – or more accurately, it is “hard” in the sense of being time-consuming (rather than intellectually challenging). I was thinking of learning to develop for Android, and while skilling-up on Java is not daunting, learning the platform would be a bit of a hassle. Opportunity cost is not justified for me.
May 24th, 2011 at 10:37 pm
As someone who has been a founding employee at more than one startup, I’ve gotten to a point where I am sitting on ideas I think are brilliant and would love to build.
I’m a non-technical idea guy and a business guy that has been successful in my work for other start-ups.
I’ve noticed how difficult it is to find a technical co-founder, let alone convince them to come on board with an idea. That turned into a project for me, learn to build something myself. So I built a site that is meant to help idea/marketing guys connect with technical co-founders and vice versa. http://www.incubationqueue.com/
My goal wasn’t necessarily to get any attention or traction with it, but just to learn. If it proves useful to people I’ll support it and maybe rebuild it in something more challenging, with greater functionality.
May 24th, 2011 at 10:50 pm
One thing about looking for a cofounder I found out is that.. they too have an idea and typically most are “alpha” male types where two ppl head strong don’t make for a good collaboration.
Finding a good match is almost as bad if not worse then finding a soulmate. So bad there are even sites that matches founders looking for other founders. I like PHP and MySQL with long walks through Fry’s component isle….
But I came to realization that looks like I’m going to have to go solo until I can have enough capital to HIRE ppl .. not founders/partners…sigh.
May 25th, 2011 at 12:13 am
The barrier to these relationships is developer excitement and flexibility.
To address this, why can’t the idea guy and the developer work together on a project that excites the developer and is marketable (according to the idea guy)?
Seems to be a better model, no?
May 25th, 2011 at 12:58 am
Sorry but let’s defend the other side. How bored are we of bitchy developers? Honestly almost everywhere I work there’s a developer crying out for more appreciation. For me this is simply another post for other developers to wet their knickers over. Perhaps you should simply appreciate that someone even asked for your skills and move on.
May 25th, 2011 at 5:03 am
I know two business guys. One has been running a small ad network for several years and wants to build an advertising campaign manager to sell as part of his business. The other one wants to build a government/commercial site and has close personal connections with former high-ranking people, the sort who make unofficial phone calls to cut through red tape. Domain knowledge, business network, customers and 50-page written business specs exist, but no programmers. What does one do in a non-American, non-programmer-culture country? I can’t imagine either of them, at their ages, (having spent decades becoming quite good in their business domains) suddenly learning about recordsets and iterators.
May 25th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
great post but it sounds like a rant. IMHO, yes it is very difficult to get someone to join your team as a technical co-founder as a idea/business model guy BUT i think we are missing the point – Whoever the idea came from, it is his job to sell it and get people excited about it..it dosent matter if he is a idea/business model guy, designer, developer or all of them..whatever the background of the founding team, the common vision about the idea triumphs any kind of superiority complex and money talk..
If the idea does not get people excited OR in other words, if the idea guy cannot convert the people he talks to , then there comes a need to talk about money..
May 27th, 2011 at 10:01 pm
Simple answer for me is that I never take on projects from people who aren’t paying me an hourly rate. That might change if you had a proven track record, but if you had a proven track record it’s highly unlikely you would be asking me to develop for a percentage of the company.
I resisted these offers for years and eventually took one on that was an excellent idea with a ton of potential. All the partners involved had the experience and the skills. The problem ended up being that we were all working for free, and our day jobs were the priority. After two years, the idea, which required significant groundwork prior to development, wasn’t finished and was still a long way off.
Lesson learned: spend my free time with my family and working on my own projects and I’m more satisfied with my life as a whole.
May 28th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
From @Robert “Perhaps you should simply appreciate that someone even asked for your skills and move on.”
Wow ! Ok one fact. Developpers and software developper do find a job VERY easily. And are somewhat well paid. Here we have something like 2-5% of people unemployed. And I do not want to be offencive, theses may not alway the most motivated to work for free, or the best in their domain either.
Look at me for exemple. I was offered good money to participate in the design of a spacecraft control center. After that I worked on a software that manage hypermarket, and now I work for the worldwide leader GDS (Global Distribution System). That is the IT system that power travel agencies, airline websites or things like “lastminute.com”.
At my current company, we are literally thousand of software engineers. I’am friend with a few of them. We have a plan to maybe fund a startup. But it is our idea, and main problem, we don’t have time. We work long hour because we like what we are doing, living at 7 or 8pm is common. We live in french riviera. In winter we go to ski every weekend. Yesterday we were playing volley on the beach. Today some go to portofino… we plan to go to mexico next november. Past years, I was in California, NY, Canada, Austria, England, Spain, Italy…
Most of us are young and alone. We already have no time left… Just imagine that we have a girl/boy friend. So what? You think that just because you need us is a right to make us work for free for you ? Something that is not technically interresting most of the time and will likely go banrupt if it manage to be funded in the first place?
If we work a lot, we can grow in the company, have better jobs. If we have ideas, we can submit them and if they are good, we can even have the budget to work on it (in the company domain). If we want to do it by ourselve on whatever we like, can use our own hard earned money and time and try.
If you plan to have a developper for free, you must offer more than saying that we are not thanksfull enough. Think that many are willing to pay 100 000$ a year or more for the salary, retirement plan and everything that go with it… just for a junior developper.
May 28th, 2011 at 10:44 pm
@Andrew
It’s quite easy to learn how to paint;
If you want to paint a castle it will take you a long time.
— The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
May 30th, 2011 at 8:21 am
Well written. Everything is so true.
May 31st, 2011 at 12:44 am
Bubble Foundry » Idea Guy Looking for Developer…
Bubble Foundry » Idea Guy Looking for Developer…
June 2nd, 2011 at 11:11 am
To create any kind of success you need to provide creative environment and should be willing to share revenue.You need people with different skill sets.
September 17th, 2011 at 6:38 pm
I almost fell off my chair when I read you say “ideas are easy”. I think I know what you mean, though many readers will not. I think you are referring to ‘thoughts’. You know, just because I think something can be done, doesnt make it an idea. Coming up with an idea is actually a process that is not even in anyone’s control. It takes a dedicated person to research, learn, grow and experiement like hell before an idea…”H
its you”. IN this context, this makes ideas much harder than executing. Read again: I didnt say it executing was easy. I said it is easier.
I do get your point though. It is a much easier effort to just think up things, than it is to labor over making them happen.
Just for clarity. I am a proud creative. ;)
September 18th, 2011 at 5:56 pm
At the risk of being an annoying pedant:
idea |īˈdēə|
noun
1 a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action: they don’t think it’s a very good idea.
• a concept or mental impression: our menu list will give you some idea of how interesting a low-fat diet can be.
• an opinion or belief: nineteenth-century ideas about drinking.
So yes, just because you think something can be done does make it an idea.
But maybe we’re just quibbling over terminology: to properly execute an idea you definitely need a good plan.
And don’t get me started on calling people ‘creatives’! ;-)
February 26th, 2012 at 7:24 am
[...] [...]
March 20th, 2012 at 12:01 am
[...] should be required reading: Idea Guy Looking for Developer Liked by [...]
March 20th, 2012 at 2:01 am
[...] Posted by hoopitz This app is pretty simple (I imagine) Hey, this is relevant again! Idea Guy Looking for Developer Liked by [...]
January 19th, 2013 at 9:42 pm
[...] seen the post “Idea Guy Looking For Developer” pop up on Hacker News, I thought I’d weigh in my opinion as a developer-entrepreneur [...]
January 25th, 2013 at 7:55 pm
Spot on. I get this offer all the time. For ideas I really believe in I sometimes offer a deferred rate, where a portion of my fee will be paid upon the close of an outside round of funding. I usually only do this when I have confidence that said round is A) imminent and B) likely, based on my assessment of the founder. Many non-technical founders actually look offended when I propose it. Then they go off and try to find someone who will work for nothing. Most fail.
There’s another element I’d add to this discussion: when paid work (or a better offer) comes up, the vast majority of developers working at less than market rate will take it and either abandon or deprioritize their pro bono commitment. I’ve seen this lead to awkward recriminations and damaged relationships in both directions. The presence of a formal engagement and some compensation – even a small amount – makes things a bit harder for a technologist to walk away, and a bit harder for a founder to expect the moon for free.
January 25th, 2013 at 8:10 pm
The idea alone is worth about 5%.
Unless the idea person is also bringing proven startup experience or a deep industry background and connections, there’s nothing to get excited about. You can’t just pitch your idea; you have to sell yourself.
I interviewed over 50 idea people before choosing my current cofounder. He’s had two successful exits out of two attempts, and our first meeting was in a VC’s conference room they loaned to us. Now THAT gets attention. The idea is a great one, but I joined because the CEO clearly has the ability and connections to make the business fly.
January 25th, 2013 at 10:24 pm
Michael, you make a very good point that I’ve been guilty of myself: when you’re working for deferred compensation, you can very easily get distracted by other, more immediately lucrative projects.
January 25th, 2013 at 10:38 pm
[...] in 2011, BubbleFoundry posted this great piece on Idea Guys Looking For Developers. It summarizes the commonly repeated mistakes that non-technical entrepreneurs make in approaching [...]
January 26th, 2013 at 5:54 am
This is definitely the perspective of most technical people I have met. And yet when they take no risks, they don’t understand the lack of reward. Weird. Of course there is a lot of logic, you are in relatively high demand and you can’t, and shouldn’t, chase most opportunities. But if you don’t want to give up any opportunity cost, enjoy the white picket fence and 2.2 kids. I also agree with John that ultimately, this comes down to most people wanting to work on their idea, and everyone else’s is inferior.
January 26th, 2013 at 3:39 pm
[...] Guy Looking for Developer (link) – Great read to see things from the Developer side when approached with the next “Big [...]
January 26th, 2013 at 4:22 pm
Donald, I don’t think it’s about avoiding all risk, but rather about avoiding chases where the risk-to-reward ration seems totally out of balance.
January 30th, 2013 at 4:48 am
This is very very good advice.
here’s another option ‘Idea people’ ought consider, and I am one myself, and that is to brief the project and pay someone to do it…. A simple way to develop relationships of trust and respect… and if it is as good and as world changing as they believe, well then they get to keep 100%.
Paying for work to be done has the added benefit of keeping up startup discipline once money has been laid down.
Steve.
February 18th, 2013 at 8:14 am
[...] To read the rest of the article, please visit: Bubble Foundry [...]